Does our Pager actually make sense? ( was Re: Problems again withRSF templates for paging controls and more )
Knoop, Peter
knoop at umich.edu
Wed Dec 19 22:37:10 UTC 2007
Allison, how long do anticipate before you have your initial findings,
or in other words, how long are you asking Steve to wait?
Thanks.
-epter
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Allison Bloodworth [mailto:abloodworth at berkeley.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 10:39 PM
> To: fluid-work at fluidproject.org; sakai-dev; Sakai UI UI
> Cc: Aaron Zeckoski; Daphne Ogle
> Subject: Re: Does our Pager actually make sense? ( was Re: Problems
> again withRSF templates for paging controls and more )
>
> Aaron and I had a good chat about this today. I'm betting that during
> the Fluid Content Management Research (http://wiki.fluidproject.org/
> display/fluid/Content+Management+Research) project running over the
> next couple of months where we look at how users manage their content
> in Sakai we will get some good information on this area (e.g. paging
> in the context of how users view and interact with content that lives
> in Sakai). This concept of different types of 'paging' is actually
> probably a good item to add to our focus structure document (a list
> of some things we might want to watch for during our research).
>
> I recommended to Aaron that if possible, Steve should hold off on
> further development of the RSF pager until we have at least initial
> findings from this research to inform some designs (probably of
> different types of pagers for different contexts, such as search
> results vs. operating on objects like student records). It is also
> quite possible that this will become a Fluid component, so if it can
> wait then perhaps Steve could leverage that code as well. Does this
> sound feasible, Steve?
>
> I will also add these different types of paging to the list of design
> patterns that either the Sakai design patterns group or the larger
> Fluid design pattern group could think about. There is already an
> "Item Pagination" design pattern in the Sakai Library (http://
> bugs.sakaiproject.org/confluence/display/DESPAT/Item+Pagination), and
> it may be that we just need to think of some sub-patterns (e.g. just
> like there are 'List Ordering' & 'Layout Preview' sub-patterns for
> 'Drag-and-Drop' in the Fluid design pattern library) to further
> describe how 'paging' might be implemented differently in different
> contexts. I'm also checking with folks at Kuali Financial for ideas,
> as I believe they are also often doing operations on a selection of
> records.
>
> Cheers,
> Allison
>
> On Dec 17, 2007, at 2:25 PM, Daphne Ogle wrote:
>
> > I guess that depends on how quickly we can find someone to work on
> > it :)
> >
> > Steve was looking for a wiki space to work some of this out in so
> > that's what this is about. Based on his response I thought he
> > wanted to start drawing some options -- is that right Steve?
> > Personally I just don't have any cycles right now -- which is why I
> > sent the previous message: "Anyone have the time and inclination
> > to draw up some paging options? Sounds like Steve is willing to
> > put some development time into this."
> >
> > -Daphne
> >
> >
> > On Dec 17, 2007, at 1:41 PM, Aaron Zeckoski wrote:
> >
> >> This is a good start but how long would you guess it will be
> >> before we
> >> see wireframes/html/javascript for this?
> >> Just want to get a sense of whether we should hold off or put work
> >> into building a component to use the old method.
> >> -AZ
> >>
> >>
> >> On Dec 17, 2007 3:50 PM, Daphne Ogle <daphne at media.berkeley.edu>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Daphne Ogle wrote:
> >>> Anyone have the time and inclination to draw up some paging
> >>> options? Sounds
> >>> like Steve is willing to put some development time into this.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I would love to do this. Is there an existing wiki page
> >>> somewhere where I
> >>> should dump this information?
> >>>
> >>> -Steve
> >>>
> >>> Hey Steve,
> >>>
> >>> Sorry for not responding earlier. Somehow I missed your response.
> >>>
> >>> I've created a page in the Fluid wiki (we already had it listed
> >>> as a future
> >>> component just needed some fleshing out),
> >>> http://wiki.fluidproject.org/x/hRQa. I tried to capture some of
> >>> this email
> >>> conversation plus various other conversations about the same
> >>> issue. I also
> >>> added links to existing design patterns and some of the
> >>> applications being
> >>> discussed as benchmarks.
> >>>
> >>> -Daphne
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -Daphne
> >>>
> >>> On Dec 11, 2007, at 5:33 AM, John Norman wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I don't think usability _requires_ the paging control to be at
> >>> the bottom of
> >>> the page. My personal webmail page has it at the top and bottom
> >>> in quite a
> >>> usable way using the technique Steve is suggesting. [image
> attached]
> >>> [see attachment: "tabbing.tiff", size: 124082 bytes]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Notice they put a drop down in the middle to give the number of
> >>> results on
> >>> the page
> >>>
> >>> John
> >>>
> >>> On 11 Dec 2007, at 09:53, swg wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Sean Keesler wrote:
> >>> While doing a recent UX walkthrough of the OSP matrix tool I
> >>> annotated that
> >>> the pager takes up significant screen real estate at the top of
> >>> the screen,
> >>> forcing the data below below the fold. Reading this post reminded
> >>> me that
> >>> this is not just an OSP UI enhancement, but that it was a
> >>> complaint about
> >>> all of the paged lists I have seen in Sakai. Does the RSF pager
> >>> look the
> >>> same as the other pagers I have seen?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> That was my original intention yes, to make it have the 4 buttons
> >>> and the
> >>> drop down thing, etc. like the original sakai pages. But after
> >>> spending a
> >>> good portion of a day (this was a few months ago) trying to find
> >>> a website
> >>> that didn't page by just using 5 or 6 hyperlinks composed of a
> >>> few arrows
> >>> and numbers, I started to wonder if it really made sense.
> >>> There's also the chance that I'm just being extremely lazy, and
> >>> it's easier
> >>> for me to render a couple hyperlinks than to either wrap buttons
> >>> in a GET
> >>> form and/or write a bunch of javascript.
> >>>
> >>> -Steve
> >>>
> >>> ( I still haven't seen another pager on the internet that looks
> >>> like ours.
> >>> There's a good chance I'm not looking hard enough ).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> If the pager is going to be at the top of tables of data, I
> >>> wondered if it
> >>> should even be displayed if there is only one page (<= 10) of
> >>> results. For
> >>> example, the matrix tool is highly unlikely to have 10 matrices
> >>> deployed in
> >>> a worksite. In that case you still have data forced down several
> >>> rows even
> >>> though the pager is useless.
> >>>
> >>> I suppose that if it is at the bottom, the same argument
> >>> (uselessness) could
> >>> be made, although it wouldn't have the same impact on the UI.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------
> >>> Sean Keesler
> >>> The Living SchoolBook
> >>> 030 Huntington Hall
> >>> Syracuse University
> >>> 315-443-4768
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 12/11/07 3:41 AM, "Ian Boston" <ieb at tfd.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Pagers should use GET s and not javascript, they are views.
> >>>
> >>> APIs must support paging and sorting, if sorting is required.
> >>>
> >>> yahoo design patterns on pagers are worth a read.
> >>>
> >>> Ian
> >>> Sent from my Pearl, sorry about the briefness and spelling!
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: swg <sgithens at caret.cam.ac.uk>
> >>>
> >>> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 01:17:02
> >>> To:Sakai UI UI <sakai-dg-ui at collab.sakaiproject.org>
> >>> Cc:sakai-dev at collab.sakaiproject.org
> >>> Subject: Does our Pager actually make sense? ( was Re: Problems
> >>> again with
> >>> RSF templates for paging controls and more )
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Hello UI (and CC'd source part) Developers,
> >>>
> >>> I've had some ongoing quandary's about our pager, and they have
> >>> resurfaced as I've been reminded that I never quite finished
> >>> debugging
> >>> the javascript and config options for the rsf version of the
> >>> Sakai Pager.
> >>>
> >>> Mostly, I'm wondering if the sakai pager really makes sense? I
> >>> realize
> >>> that we're supposed to keep using it so the Sakai user interface
is
> >>> 'consistent', but I'm hard pressed to find another pager on any
> >>> other
> >>> web page that looks like ours. Maybe I'm just being overcritical.
> >>>
> >>> Like, most web sites have some links in plain text with some
> >>> arrows and
> >>> a couple numbers:
> >>>
> >>> 1 _2_ 3 >
> >>>
> >>> or maybe something more complicated,
> >>>
> >>> << < 1 _2_ 3 ... > >>
> >>>
> >>> Ours has a bunch of buttons. And no way to just skip forward a
> >>> couple
> >>> pages. I'm assuming it's like this because in the past we've
> almost
> >>> exclusively loaded the entire table into memory and the pager had
> >>> buttons because it required submission from a <form/> of some
sort.
> >>>
> >>> I've been trying to return to a simpler more RESTful time, almost
> >>> PHP'ish, where paging means submitting a GET url, and you do a
> >>> fast SQL
> >>> query with the LIMIT BY and SORT BY options. It's really weird
> >>> doing
> >>> that with our current pager widget because it forces you to use
> >>> Javascript to power the buttons to do the GET request. Unless you
> >>> resort to really complicated GET <forms>.
> >>>
> >>> Do you think we ever might give some thought to a pager that uses
> >>> simple
> >>> links like other websites?
> >>>
> >>> On a related tangent, does anyone know of a UI Design Study or
> >>> whitepaper that gives super detailed behavior expectations from
> >>> sorted/searched/paged tables?
> >>>
> >>> I've always wondered about things like:
> >>>
> >>> If I go to the 3rd page of a paged table and choose to sort by a
> >>> different column, should I stay on the 3rd page of the newly
sorted
> >>> table, or should I go back to the first page? What if I'm just
> >>> clicking
> >>> to sort on the same column in the other direction. What if it's a
> >>> weighted sort on one of the other columns? What if you enter a
> >>> search
> >>> term?
> >>>
> >>> I would guess that if you change any of the options you should
> >>> probably
> >>> go back to the first page.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Steve
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
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> >>> Attachments:
> >>>
> >>> tabbing.tiff
> >>> https://collab.sakaiproject.org/access/content/attachment/
> >>> e51807d5-edf5-4ee1-8008-cefdfb874a74/tabbing.tiff
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Daphne Ogle
> >>> Senior Interaction Designer
> >>> University of California, Berkeley
> >>> Educational Technology Services
> >>> daphne at media.berkeley.edu
> >>> cell (510)847-0308
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [see attachment: "message0.html", size: 28213 bytes]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Attachments:
> >>>
> >>> message0.html
> >>> https://collab.sakaiproject.org/access/content/attachment/
> >>> 977112fe-d7ee-4b51-000e-cac48bfd2f3a/message0.html
> >>>
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----------------------
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------
> >>> Michelle D'Souza
> >>> Software Developer, Fluid Project
> >>> Adaptive Technology Resource Centre
> >>> University of Toronto
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Daphne Ogle
> >>> Senior Interaction Designer
> >>> University of California, Berkeley
> >>> Educational Technology Services
> >>> daphne at media.berkeley.edu
> >>> cell (510)847-0308
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> fluid-work mailing list
> >>> fluid-work at fluidproject.org
> >>> http://fluidproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fluid-work
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Aaron Zeckoski (aaronz at vt.edu)
> >> Senior Research Engineer - CARET - Cambridge University
> >> [http://bugs.sakaiproject.org/confluence/display/~aaronz/]
> >> Sakai Fellow - [http://aaronz-sakai.blogspot.com/]
> >
> > Daphne Ogle
> > Senior Interaction Designer
> > University of California, Berkeley
> > Educational Technology Services
> > daphne at media.berkeley.edu
> > cell (510)847-0308
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > fluid-work mailing list
> > fluid-work at fluidproject.org
> > http://fluidproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fluid-work
>
> Allison Bloodworth
> Senior User Interaction Designer
> Educational Technology Services
> University of California, Berkeley
> (415) 377-8243
> abloodworth at berkeley.edu
>
>
>
>
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>
>
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